Curse

Jbrown · May 10, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

^
What makes you think it would be any different. The reason for the explosion of bots is because everyone realized anet wouldn't ban them for it as evident by all the people running mesmers with 6 interrupts on there bar and never missing a single one ON OBS MODE.
The only way I can tell to stop botters is to make it so you can't inject files into the gw.exe. But then, texmod would go down also, and we all the pve'ers would be pissed about that.

tasha · May 10, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I won't comment on PvP bots as the people I would want to play with don't play in enough concurrent numbers to do this and I don't enjoy RA.

What I will say is in relation to PvE: Whatever solution may be implemented, it should not make any activity disproportionately difficult so as to require specific builds to complete by ordinary players (the people who have maybe 1-2 titles under their belt, who haven't really grasped how to approach Hard Mode).

*lemming* · May 10, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrown

The reason for the explosion of bots is because everyone realized anet wouldn't ban them for it as evident by all the people running mesmers with 6 interrupts on there bar and never missing a single one ON OBS MODE.

This is correct.

wilebill · May 10, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Sure, ban the bots. But how to remove them? The expense would be enormous and ANet is not going to spend the money to do it. MMOs with monthly fees and multiple servers with game masters can greatly reduce the number of botters, but even they cannot eliminate botting.

The only way to eliminate botting is to build a game where there is nothing to steal. Perhaps GW2 will be that game.

Killed u man · May 10, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Sure, ban the bots. But how to remove them? The expense would be enormous and ANet is not going to spend the money to do it. MMOs with monthly fees and multiple servers with game masters can greatly reduce the number of botters, but even they cannot eliminate botting.

The only way to eliminate botting is to build a game where there is nothing to steal. Perhaps GW2 will be that game.

Injection is something that can be detected. Anet could autoban anyone who attempts to inject into GW. It can be an automated process. Concidering injection is the definition of hacking, there shouldn't be any "if's" or "but's". Anyone attempting to inject into GW.exe is a hacker...

Kattar · May 10, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Stay on topic.

Fay Vert · May 10, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Injection is something that can be detected. Anet could autoban anyone who attempts to inject into GW. It can be an automated process. Concidering injection is the definition of hacking, there shouldn't be any "if's" or "but's". Anyone attempting to inject into GW.exe is a hacker...

While I agree that hacking the exe should result in a ban, many (most?) bots don't use injection, they use the same interface as a player does.

Mangione · May 10, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

While I agree that hacking the exe should result in a ban, many (most?) bots don't use injection, they use the same interface as a player does.

Well, let's start banning the ones with injection.
I agree with Borat on this one, you can't use double standards.

He was banned and ANet has taken a firm stance on that. I would like to see an equally firm stance on bots. PVErs will have to deal with it.

Tramp · May 10, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Can they really detect injection? I am not computer programmer, but I remember from this same thread a couple months ago that the computer nerds were saying that you could not detect it without another program running alongside gw similar to Punkbuster checking the files. If that is the case AND they have a skeleton crew at gw1 now, then it aint gonna happen.

Another thought just occured to me too, let's just say I might own a pirated copy of some photo editing software (not saying I do, not saying I dont). But that software supposedly checks the cdkey vs. some database at their company. Well, all the hacker/crackers/smackers (whatever they are) did was to tell the checking part of the program to verify against a file on my computer instead of the company's database, and surprise! it comes back good everytime. So let's say the people at gw1 come up with some checking device, how long would it take for these guys to inject into the checking program, or algorithm if it was part of gw.exe, to change it so that it gives back a positive result everytime? As long as the game resides on our computers, I do not see how you can ever stop these smart programmers from hacking into any verification checkpoint and circumventing it. That means gw1, and I would bet gw2, is toast.

Please tell me I am stupid because it is Monday and I am depressed again.

Killed u man · May 10, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I have just been told by someone who knows of this matter that Anet could, in fact, detect the current version of bots within the same process.

But this person also mentioned that it is also possible to make all these bots completely undetectable, but the current versions are far from. The truth is that it would only require very few changes for Anet to detect who is injecting into GW. As mentioned before, this would bring Texmod users on the same page as botters.

And yes, every security measure can be circumvented, but the truth is that Anet won't have to do it.

Simply one mass-ban on whoever is using the current version would be enough to guarantee the majority of players never doing it again. Right now, they're taking no action. By taking no action, they're sending out the message they don't mind these bots.

One mass-ban on all the current botters is all they need.

Mangione · May 10, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

@Tramp:
I'm no programmer either, but while for offline software and games can be easier to fake a check, it would be harder for an online game, since you can still refuse to allow the login to those who fail the online check.
Your example would have an hard time working with an online game:
In you example the server receives nothing, since the test it is verified against a file on your computer, for an offline program that is not a problem, for an online game the server would refuse connection.
In the end is the server who has the last word on access, and even if the client is manipulated in a way to tell "I'm legit", if the server thinks it is not, then the server who kicks the client out.

BTW, this is speculation, but I think that given enough thought it can be done.
It all depends on the resources ANet is willing to invest in this.
This sets a precedent on how they will treat their future products. From how the situation will develop on GW1 we will know how it will be GW2 once they start working for GW3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulled u man

Simply one mass-ban on whoever is using the current version would be enough to guarantee the majority of players never doing it again. Right now, they're taking no action. By taking no action, they're sending out the message they don't mind these bots.

One mass-ban on all the current botters is all they need.

That's right.
Security measures can be circumvented, but who will try to bot, if as soon as ANet finds a way to detect the new bot, the botter's account is terminated?

Coverticus · May 10, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

But this person also mentioned that it is also possible to make all these bots completely undetectable, but the current versions are far from. The truth is that it would only require very few changes for Anet to detect who is injecting into GW. As mentioned before, this would bring Texmod users on the same page as botters.

Okay, since the TexMod "discussion" has been removed from this thread, all I will say on the matter is if ANet decide to implement something that does detect and report client side manipulation/injection, they would have to be able to distinguish between legitimate TexMod users and botters - if they actioned the ban hammer to everyone, then they would be opening a whole world of pain upon themselves.

Fay Vert · May 10, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

Well, let's start banning the ones with injection.
I agree with Borat on this one, you can't use double standards.

He was banned and ANet has taken a firm stance on that. I would like to see an equally firm stance on bots. PVErs will have to deal with it.

Oh I agree on that, just saying that effort on injection is not hte issue, ban that and it won't change anything. There are a lot of ways to cheat, so they need to prioritise what few resources they have. They should go after the most damaging bots first, and only given limited resources, regardless if that is cheating in PvP or exploits in PvE.

I think ANet have been very clear on what they regard as acceptible and unacceptible when it comes to player aids. Borat seems very confused both on Anet's stance, the resources available, the technology used by cheats, and the difference between right and wrong.

lishi · May 10, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

While I agree that hacking the exe should result in a ban, many (most?) bots don't use injection, they use the same interface as a player does.

Textmod change texture while a dll injection is quite a different thing as it add bits of code.

But even if that wasn't really the case, when you will have luxon bots, speedbooker bots, vanquishing bots, chest runner's bot, ecto bot, etc running around 24/24 i think textmod is a small price to pay.

And of course, in pvp the effect its even more clear to the poor guy who endure direct botting.

oscarmk · May 10, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Sadly all this bot crap, is going to end in every single game having some modded and improved "captcha" thing were the pattern changes weekly, so that is is not easy to figure out using computer vision basics.

Additionally every single game will also be running a service on the background like the "Warden", to monitor everything else you are running while you are also running the game, invasion of privacy?. yes, but It will be in the EULA anyway, so eventually every game will have to be like this and you will have to agree to it in order to play it.

Anyway

/signed

snaek · May 10, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

^i don't mind the anti-cheats running in the background when playing games... but have you seen the new punkbuster? it now runs as a windows service 24/7, even if your not playing games. ridiculous.

in regards to the last page of posts: passive solutions such as preventing the functionality of bots can only go so far. like many have said, there still needs to be an active "policing" or enforcement of the rules, i.e. banning. im glad that you were able to get one of the botters banned, i would certainly hope that this will happen more often. i tried using the in-game /report function god knows how many times, with absolute 0 success in the past.

Fay Vert · May 10, 2010, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Textmod change texture while a dll injection is quite a different thing as it add bits of code.

But even if that wasn't really the case, when you will have luxon bots, speedbooker bots, vanquishing bots, chest runner's bot, ecto bot, etc running around 24/24 i think textmod is a small price to pay.

And of course, in pvp the effect its even more clear to the poor guy who endure direct botting.

I don't understand your point. Sounds like there are different agendas here, people more interested in diverting attention away from where it's needed, the bots!

Fluffy Kittens · May 10, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

!not signed

I farm better than farm bots and I interrupt better than interrupt bots so I don't care whos botting and whos not, they're just nerds I pwn any time )))

*lemming* · May 10, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

!not signed

I farm better than farm bots and I interrupt better than interrupt bots so I don't care whos botting and whos not, they're just nerds I pwn any time )))

Lingering necros and SW sins don't have interrupts.

Grj · May 10, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

What are people expecting to happen, a mass banning of accounts of the people that bot?

Whatever solution anet come up with is going to met with a generic from this point forward if you get caught botting we will ban you just like the HFFF bot.

In another way this is great, this issue is really highlighting what might be expected once gw2 comes out or when they decide to ditch it for gw3